Great Big Bags 2.0 – 138L (each) Panniers… Seriously?!

Prologue
Episode 1: 138L (each) Panniers… Seriously?! (you are here)
Episode 2: Big Fat Dumb Wideloaders
Episode 3: Kickstand Kaos
Episode 4: Add a Flight Deck. And a Hangar
Episode 5: Odds and Ends

When I put together my first set of Big and Cheap DIY Cargo Bike Bags, I thought two 77L panniers were huge! I fit them onto my Mongoose Envoy cargo bike project, and for several months they have been great, but not quite perfect. Not because of the capacity of the things. They were perfectly sized for that mid tail frame. But there were a few convenience issues … you’ll see below what my solutions were.

Why go bigger?

Well, I liked the Mongoose mid tail so much (it was my first dedicated cargo bike) I decided to jump all in and go for a full sized longtail with as much capacity as I could get my hands on. The Surly Big Fat Dummy was a bike I had *almost* bought before the Mongoose, and I decided with its fat tires, sheer size and very stiff frame it would offer the larger carry capacity and greater versatility I was after.

Going from a mid tail to a long tail meant I had more room for bigger bags. I could do the Rothco 77L canvas bags again, but after quite a bit of shopping around, I found Rothco’s larger, heavy-canvas 34″ long, square zipper’d duffel bag was dimensionally just about perfect to fit the BFD’s rear cargo area.

But, I am getting ahead of myself.

Parts List

$92.00 Rothco Jumbo Canvas Cargo Bag (qty 2)
  7.08 C.S. Osborne #5 5/8" hole Brass Grommets (qty 10)
 44.00 Cross Linked Polyethylene - 2lb, yellow 72"x48
 15.00 7/8" thick hardwood dowel (qty 2)
 20.00 12" soft cargo loops, 6 pak (qty 2)
  7.21 7/8" rubber chair feet 4 pak
 36.00 74" buckled 2" wide luggage strap 2 pak (qty 4)

Total Project Cost: About $221.00.
Result: 276L of pannier space. Two Hundred and Seventy Six Liters.

Notes on the Parts List

Foam
I am sure you can find something cheaper. I wanted something bright yellow so I could see the contents of the bag easily. Cross linked polyethylene is essentially a thin version of gym mat material. Extremely fine-celled. I have used Foam Factory for some esoteric jobs in business for custom cut stuff and found they had what I was after. What you want here is a big single sheet of foam that wraps entirely around the bag interior. The large foam sheet specified here is just over double what you need. Cut it in half, shave a few inches off one side and its a perfect fit. As an alternative you might try a couple of the Therma Rest mattresses that I used in my original bags, and some gorilla tape.

Grommets
You can also use #6 grommets just like I did with the original Big And Cheap Bags. It all depends on what tools you have in your garage. If you have no grommeting tools whatsoever, this #5 size midget grommet kit will give you everything you need – the tool and plenty of grommets. Cost is about $56 and you will have plenty of grommets left over so you can hammer reinforced holes into more things.

The Wooden Dowels
You can go to Home Depot and pay about half what you will at Amazon. Thats what I did, and HD has a handy manual-cut station you can use to cut the rod down if you don’t have a saw (please buy a saw instead). I only put Amazon as a source so there is an online purchase choice.

The Luggage Straps, Part 1
I specified four 2-paks for a total of 8 straps. 4 per side. Generally you only need two. But when carrying really heavy items, like the pictured load below (still in the shopping cart) that weighed about 128 lbs (58 kilos) … you want more straps to help take the burden off of your wideloaders. So, you can buy fewer straps. Or you can buy the max that will fit and toss the spares into your cavernous panniers and forget about them until they are needed. Your choice.

My first shopping trip with these bags was a Costco run. I didn’t realize I had almost 130 lbs in the cart. The duffel in the bottom goes onto the deck was at least another 20 (Just the lock is 15 lbs).

The Luggage Straps, Part 2
Notice in the pic above, and in my previous Big Bag posts, I used 2″ and then 3″ wide velcro straps (a single 3″ above). these hold fine, but in daily use, velcro is… velcro. It is constantly sticking to things it decides to stick to, and generally making my life more difficult. The straps do indeed do their job, but first and foremost just finding 3″ wide straps long enough to work with these bags is very difficult (and a process I will not describe since I abandoned them). Also these 3″ extra-long unicorns are just too damned expensive. Kydex buckled straps unbuckle in an instant, don’t stick to themselves or anything else, fit 4 to a side which is plenty and cost less to boot. Lastly, the luggage straps I am specifying adjust from 40″ to 74″ which is perfect for folding the bags up, empty, and expanding them out when full. Since the excess strap length is captured via a sewn-on sleeve, nothing is ever flopping around.

Whats With The Dowels?

My original Big Bags used hooks, and I went to a fair amount of trouble to make sure they were absolutely planted and rattle-free. And they are all that. But still, I thought there has to be a better way, and I ended up coming up with one.

Using dowels and cargo loops for hanging the bag has major benefits over hooks:

  • It doesn’t rattle
  • It is light weight (lighter still if you use an alloy tube)
  • It is cheap (less so if you go alloy)
  • It distributes the load on the bags evenly across their entire length
  • It holds them fully secure
  • There are no points of excessive wear/rubbing.

And last but not least, they make bag removal and reattachment a snap. The process described in a nutshell:

STEP 1: Loop-tie five cargo loops per side to the Dummy rails, and loop those up thru the deck itself so they drape down. If you are not making bags for a Surly or Xtracycle-compatible cargo bike, use as many loops per side as you can, as well-spaced as you can make them.

Here is one of my early fitments when I was figuring this all out.

STEP 2: Create 5 grommet holes in the top inside edge of each bag. One on each top corner, and the remaining three positioned so they are roughly equally spaced down the side of your rack. the exact positions will vary depending on your rack. I illustrated the whole grommet-creation process in the original bag creation post. But worth noting for these bags I used smaller #5 grommets and I really prefer this smaller size.

STEP 3: Line up your now-holey bag with the dangly loops and, one at a time, put each loop into each corresponding bag hole. As you do this, thread your dowel thru the loop on the inside of the bag.

Here is what this looks like with no bag in the middle


Annnnnd with the bag:

STEP 4: Remember the rubber chair feet? Put one on each end of the wooden dowel. This keeps the bag from rubbing on the edge of a relatively sharp edge of cut wood. Sooner or later it will rub enough to wear thru the canvas. But not if you have a big soft round rubber bumper on that edge.

Note the above pics show a 1.25″ wooden dowel. I downsized to 7/8″ and its much easier to fit the loops thru when putting the bag back on. You can see the smaller version in the pics below. Original concern was the dowel bending, but there are so many cargo loops to suspend it… thats not going to happen.

Spend a few minutes with some fine-grit sandpaper to make the imperfect surface of your dowel silky smooth.

Bag Removal and Re-Attachment

Here it is in a few easy steps. I photographed my first bag removal as you see, and I timed the second one with a stopwatch. It took 30 seconds to remove the bag from the bike and another 15 seconds to toss in the straps and zip the bag back up.

You can forget about making something that fast and easy with hooks.

STEP 1: Unbuckle the two bag straps. Pull the top inside corners of the bag back so each end of the wooden dowel is visible.

STEP 2: Pull off the rubber foot from one side. I removed the rear one this time.
STEP 3: Pull the dowel out from the other side. Its only halfway out in the picture. It will slide out quickly and easily.

STEP 4: DONE. The bag is now free. It is now a big duffel bag with handles you can lug into the house with all its contents. Feel free to use the shoulder strap that came with it.

Did I Mention The Kangaroo Pouch?

Yes really. Just like the original bags, Big Bags 2.0 are typically folded up when empty. The foam liner inside means the folds are fairly thick and a pouch is created in the fold. For bags this big, its pretty deep, too. And almost three feet long. Check out how I almost disappear a 2 lb sledgehammer into it, standing on its end, below.

That makes for secure storage of most daily-use items. On a typical day, a small backpack with my work clothes, pouch with my keys and alarm remote and garage door opener, and another with my wallet and phone are all snuggled in one side or the other. Road bounces and vibrations don’t disturb them, and there is enough room left over that I don’t have to open the bags up at all unless I am on a shopping trip. So as big as these things are, if anything they handle small jobs just as well as the the large ones they were designed for.

I used to think the 77L bags were crazy big. I spent a lot of time agonizing over whether I was wasting time and money even attempting to go bigger with these duffel bags. Now, having had some time to live with them and on more than one occasion to stuff them full, I can’t imagine why I would want to go smaller.

The Surly Big Fat Dummy Project

Prologue (you are here)
Episode 1: 138L (each) Panniers… Seriously?!
Episode 2: Big Fat Dumb Wideloaders
Episode 3: Kickstand Kaos
Episode 4: Add a Flight Deck. And a Hangar
Episode 5: Odds and Ends

Less than a year ago, I started the Mongoose Envoy Project. I loved the bike and – after dabbling with fast-carry-stuff ebikes for a few years (that ended up looking more like zombie-apocalypse bikes), it was my first actual purpose-built cargo bike.

The Mongoose Envoy, in its final form with the 44″ skateboard deck, indestructo wheels and big poofy tires

With respect to the cargo platform, I. Freaking. Loved. It. I am not a recreational rider. I never have been since I started riding in the 1970’s. I put in long commute rides, and I try and do as much as I can of my daily errands on a bike vs. uh… one of my automobiles. Yes I have to admit that while I am doing the whole save-the-planet schtick and trying not to drive, its because I love riding bikes and I always have.

I bought a station wagon because i hate bike racks and could put a bike in the back. Things got out of hand.

Anyway, where was I? Right. Cargo bikes. So… I built the Mongoose out until it was truly as perfect as it can be for its intended purpose. Its even a good value and componentwise I would put it up with just about any high end cargo bike. With that said, it has some problems.

  1. It doesn’t fit me quite right. Mostly in the upper body. I have done pretty much what I can to deal with this. A LOT of the problem has absolutely nothing to do with the bicycle and has everything to do with lingering injuries from when I was T-boned by an inattentive driver in a SMIDSY type collision. I did a passable Superman impression on the arc upwards… and a decent impression of Vinko Bokataj for the landing.
  2. It hurts to ride the damn thing. Again, this is all about residual pain from the above-referenced accident and has nothing to do with the bike. My wrists remain in bad shape, probably permanently, and while the Jones bars help by putting my hands at a better angle, I need both a higher upright riding position to take weight off my wrists, and a suspension fork to reduce the impacts that are part of normal street riding.
  3. As the cargo bike platform expanded my idea of what a bike could accomplish, I wanted more than the Envoy, with its mid-tail size and only plus-sized (after upgrading) tires could deliver. Go big or go home as the saying goes, and the Big Fat Dummy is arguably, physically the largest production 2-wheel bike on the planet.
  4. The addition of the larger 2.8″ plus sized tires on the Envoy worked so well, and I have done so much work with the fat tire platform, I wanted to go fat on a cargo bike and take advantage of the added capacity the fat tires give (and since my very first serious Costco run weighed in at a total of over 500 lbs counting me and the bike… good decision!)

So, this section of the blog, of which this page is only a teaser that will eventually house the episode menu, will document the custom work I have done on this bike. What is worth mentioning that is. This is not going to be a rivet-scraping pass over the bike. We’ll just hit the high points.

Planned (so far) Project Episodes

One bike to rule them all? So far yeah. Its all that.

Frankenstein Boots For The Ursus Jumbo

I had an aftermarket kickstand that was too short. Here’s a way to add a tough-as-shoe-leather extension that should last forever.

My Mongoose Envoy received a much-needed upgrade to its kickstand when I upgraded to an Ursus Jumbo, whose much-wider (18″) leg platform keeps the bike stable on uneven pavement or when it was heavily loaded.

The stock Envoy stand works well unless you have 100 lbs of groceries loaded up. Do that and .. oops you gently bumped the bike! Over it goes and boy does your life suck. You’ll have to unload the bags, stand the bike back up, uncrack the eggs and load back up again. Same deal happens when parked on an incline.

The Jumbo solved this problem given its obvious mechanical advantage.

Jumbo on… Skinny tires. Problem solved.

… until I put some big poofy 26×2.8 Vee Speedster tires on the bike, which raised the frame up probably a full inch; maybe more. That meant of the two legs that Ursus kickstand has, only one of them was on the ground at any one time. At first it was kind of fun to be able to lower the stand and roll the bike around, or out of my way with ease. Then I saw what a bad idea it was on a sloping driveway. The bike was happy to tip over. For a cargo bike that will be loaded, that has to change.

Fat tires tall. Fat tires good. Kickstand barely touching ground bad.

A couple of methods presented themselves. The first was to lower the stand by shimming the base. While I would have been able to find a longer M10 bolt to do the job, making a shim that will actually work is a lot more complex than just throwing in some washers and calling it good. Absent a mill and some billet to do some custom fabrication, shimming was a no-go. So, since I can’t make the base longer, that leaves only the legs. I had to make them longer.

Shoe Goo… To The Rescue!

I should be brought up on charges for that header. Couldn’t help myself, and besides its true. Shoe Goo is a shoe repair tool that is essentially replacement shoe leather. Or shoe adhesive to hold your precious Converse All Stars together after they came apart. Or both. For you shade tree mechanics, if you think of it as a hard rubber equivalent of JB Weld … you have it down.

I suggest buying the big tube. I used about one full tube per side.

So what I decided to do is to stick my kickstand upside down in a vise, block off the bottom of each leg with some painter’s tape, fill the resulting cup with goo and let it dry. Peel off the tape and I’ll have a longer kickstand with a new, tough-as-nails rubber foot.

It turned out to be a bit longer than that, and took quite a bit more time to cure. But layering on a bunch of goop to the bottom of the kickstand is the short version of what I did here. And best of all, it actually worked.

Time For Plan B

What you see above is only the first attempt, using green painter’s tape. And while it worked (see photos sans tape) it became clear just by looking at it I could expand the ‘foot’ to a much greater size if I taped off the base and poured in more goo. You can see this in the last two photos where the tape has been removed. the foot of the Jumbo has essentially a large hole in it that you can further tape off, then fill in. this time you need to tape halfway up the leg as that hole runs thru to the front of the stand, and your tape will provide a deep chamber for the goo to fill and harden into.

This time I used silicone tape, which I discovered by accident does not stick to Shoe Goo! Knowing that, I was able to use a scrap of tape to help sculpt the slowly hardening-but-still-pliable glob of goo. That matters because as this stuff dries – and then cures – it shrinks into itself. You will need to come back every couple of days to apply another layer. And when at some point you call the job done, you will want to let this material sit for at least another five days.

So if you are doing the math here, that means this is going to take time. I spent a total of about two weeks applying, filling again after it shrinks down and then letting it cure so its stable with a bike standing on it.

Is it worth the trouble? Well, I spent about $8 on two of the big tubes of goo and another nickel or so on a length of black rubber mastik tape around each foot to pretty them up. When I was done, I had a kickstand that completely solved my problem, and I can expect to be able to use for the life of the bike. If you want, Shoe Goo comes in a black formula that will have a matching look… but it costs more than double what the clear stuff does.

If You Do This…

I felt my way thru this project and learned as I went. The way YOU want to do it is skip the first stage with the green tape entirely. Use the silicone tape to wrap the entire foot. Wrap snugly at the bottom of the channel you want to fill, and as you get to the top – the actual extension to the base – do not wrap that tight, just do it loosely and make sure the tape wrap adheres to itself. Then inject the goo with a narrow nozzle (there are kits out there that have them) deep into the channel you just created, filling it from bottom to top until you have a single large ‘sole’ wrapped in the silicone tape.

Then, walk away from it for 24 hours. Add more goo as it cures and shrinks down. Use a scrap of silicone to pat down the added goo so it forms a nice smooth surface. If it seems solid, remember thats just the outer layer and inside its still like jelly. I went on a week’s vacation after I thought I had it done and it was pretty solid.

So… Wait it out. the results are worth it.

Mongoose Envoy Update – Cargo Deck 3.0

When I originally used a double-kick longboard deck to make an XL cargo carrying top for my Mongoose Envoy project, its 33″ (84cm) length and 10″ (25cm) width seemed really big.  Considering I was coming from a world of ordinary bike racks on normal-wheelbase bikes, it was quite large.

img_20190929_170059
Deck 1.0, shortly after installation. I try to avoid the word “festoon” to describe a bike build so those two little bags in back went away soon afterwards.

The XL deck worked *splendidly*.  I had no complaints whatsoever, and I could have left it like that forever.  However…

The board, by virtue of its 33″ length, only used 4 of the 5 available rows of M5 mounting bosses.  So I had definitely left some available space on the table.   In a perfect world, I would have found a longer version of the same board:  Say a 40″ double-kick.  But alas, at the time, I couldn’t find one.  I also could not find another board that had this same 10″ width.  Everything else was more narrow.  But I could get close with what became Deck 2.0: a 40″ x 9.75″ kicktail longboard.

It installed easy enough.  I painted it with Rustoleum truck bedliner to pebble the surface just right so it held onto gear a bit.  I used the same inverted grub-screws for drill guides like I describe in the Deck 1.0 post.   And the rack was now long enough so it used all 10 mounting points on the frame.  It couldn’t be more solid – the board is 8 layers of Canadian maple – and makes a sturdy handle I can use to pick the bike up and move it around from the rear.

And… its 40″ long.  With that solid center mount kickstand, its handy to have a coffee table with you wherever you go.  From a cargo standpoint I could easily net down a 3-foot duffel bag on top and still have room to spare.

Still, It didn’t work out quite the way I planned.  I thought I wanted to move the rack further forward so I could mount gear under the seat.  So I did that and the idea was to take up the otherwise wasted space just behind the seat.  But once I had it set up, I found the space effectively unusable.  I needed to keep some room back there for the Thudbuster to flex as part of its normal duty cycle, and my legs hit whatever was jacked up all the way to the front.

I also missed the front kick on Deck 1.0, which provided a natural slope to keep gear from sliding forward under hard braking.  As a substitute threaded a couple of M6 bolts directly into the M5 holes (no fixing nuts needed) that existed for the nonexistent trucks. These held down a simple 50-cent L bracket wrapped in my favorite padded rubber mastik tape.  It worked but in the end I removed it for aesthetic reasons. 

Lastly, I mounted the board just a hair too far forward, and occasionally I brushed it with my legs during the pedal stroke.  Not a big deal unless you are a perfectionist. I didn’t want to redrill the holes so I could move it back. It was a minor imperfection. So I left the board on for several months and it worked great.

But I did acquire a 44″x9″ kicktail longboard from Magneto, with the intention of using it on the back of a planned Surly Big Fat Dummy build.  That plan went away, and the 44″ board had no home… so what the hell lets put it on the Envoy.

While I was at it, I decided to make a couple of changes.  First of all, the Magneto board comes with an aggressive, highly abrasive grip coating on it.  I took an orbital sander and smoothed it down some so it would not potentially wear thru duffel bags and bits I’ll have netted down on top of it.

Next, I painted it with the same Rustoleum truck bed coating spray.  This took a little more of the harshness off the grip coating and gave the deck a tough finish.  I also decided to two-tone it with some medium gray paint on the underside.  It turns out this is totally invisible unless you are laying on the ground looking up at it.

Also, instead of re-using the 25mm post spacers, I bought new ones 40mm tall. These required longer 75mm bolts.  Having used the rack already for several months with 25mm between deck and frame, I wanted more room to move my hands in and out attaching/detaching net hooks, passing cinch straps thru etc.

It came out great.  This Magneto board is a sandwich of bamboo and maple so it has a touch of flex to it. This made  bolting to the somewhat uneven frame easier.  Its still rock solid despite the now 4″ longer tail out the back, which I do not notice from a convenience standpoint (its not too long, which I worried about).  The 40mm spacers are an absolutely perfect height to let me get my hands in there without being so long they compromise the solidity of the mount.

The board has a front kick, but it turns out it can’t easily be used, for the same reason I couldn’t use the front few inches on the 40″ deck. However it is slightly narrower than the shorter board so even though it is just as far forward, I no longer hit it with my legs.

As a gear-stop/bumper, I wanted something a bit more substantial than the half-assed L bracket I used on the shorter board, so I used a couple of the leftover 25x13mm M5 spacers, plus some 10x10mm spacers I had in my parts bin, to create some ‘electrode’ stanchions fore and aft.  With the large area washers at top, they either provide a bumper for gear stowed on the deck, solid purchase for a hook, or a place for my net to grab onto in the very back. Silicone grip scraps fit right over them to ensure the edges of the top washer don’t bite into my gear.

The two forward stanchions are extended from the deck mounting holes and go all the way thru to the frame.  They use 110mm M5 bolts.  The two in the rear use the rearmost holes drilled for the trucks. These use matching countersunk bolts and finishing washers like those used with all the other mounting hardware.

img_20200514_163026
A bit of scrap silicone handlebar grip tucks under the rear stanchions to provide a smooth, grippy place for my net to glom onto. You can stretch the net all the way back and over the kicktail, too.

Compare this pic above to the 40″ board and its clearly longer, but functionally, the increased length is no bother.  If I had to fit the bike on a train or bus then this is not the best solution.  At some point, if I need some extra carrying space out back, its available.  At present, I have an extended amount of space for my round 40″ duffel.

… and a bigger coffee table.

The BBSHD: Musical Chainrings

It seems inevitable.  When I build a bike, I go through front chainrings trying to get the gearing just to my liking.  My Mongoose Envoy build has pretty much set the world record for tweaks in this regard.  But gearing wasn’t the problem so much as chain alignment.  Alignment is one of the most talked about issues with mid drives and up to this point I have not had to work too hard to get it right.  This build, not so much but I think I finally got it (like $350 later).

While dealing with this I have fooled around with three different sets of crankarms (160’s, 170’s and 175’s).  Not the subject here so if you notice the different crankarms in the pics, I am ignoring them on purpose.

Sidebar:  When building the Surly Big Fat Dummy, I found exactly the same thing as I did here insofar as chain alignment is concerned.  And used the same solution – the USAMade adapter listed as an Honorable Mention below got pulled out of the parts pile and put to use.

The Right Tool For The Job

The Mongoose build is a first for me in many ways.  One thing in particular:  the BBSHD fits the frame really well.  Its a 68mm bottom bracket with absolutely zero chainstay obstruction for the secondary housing.  So I can butt the motor right up against the bottom bracket.  Further, its a lonnnng way back there so chain alignment and misalignment – an inevitable concern with an HD build – is a lot more forgiving since the angles are gentler thanks to the longer reach.  On this bike, if I want I can even forego the offset non-drive side crankarm and the pedals are still easily centered under me.  So the HD is a great fit here.

About That Job…

The Mongoose is a cargo bike.  So it hauls heavy stuff (usually groceries).  It has a secondary job as an unladen backup commuter, but primarily it needs to be optimized to start from a stop while the entire system – with me – weighs 400-450 lbs (180-204kg).  I have really loaded it that heavily so this is not a theoretical exercise.  So I want a big-ish chainring for when I am pedaling fast and light, and still need to be able to get to the big cogs in the back for when I am loaded up and chugging along like a two-wheeled freight train.

Plan A:  Luna Eclipse (42T)

The Luna Eclipse is one of the best BBSHD chainring setups on the market, with a unique ‘wicked’ tooth profile meant to eliminate the possibility of a chain drop under extreme use.  It also has the most extreme internal offset of any chainring option.  This will do the most to overcome the grief visited upon the BBSHD builder by that drive’s secondary housing sending the chainring way out to right field.

Its also gorgeous.  The gunmetal finish I chose matched beautifully with the dark grey frame.  Unfortunately 42T (which is the standard for full-offset chainrings as any smaller and you can’t clear the secondary housing) was not large enough to keep me from clown-pedaling when riding the bike as a commuter.  There was another problem:  Chain alignment.  Running that smaller 42T ring with the smallest rear cog resulted in, after only a few weeks, a whole lot of wear on the inside.  This is why mid drive builds demand the most out of the builder in terms of thinking things thru.  Time for Plan B.

IMG_20200503_123800
Its not ruined yet, but its lifespan sure has been shortened.  this was only a couple hundred miles of wear.

The Eclipse is a proprietary chainring platform, but fortunately other sizes are available.  the largest of which is what I tried next.

Plan B:  Luna Eclipse (48T)

So Plan B was to swap in a Luna 48T ring onto the Eclipse center section to fix the clown pedaling, and to stay the hell off the 12T small rear cog to deal with the alignment issue (I am using a welded together steel cluster for durability and the 12T is alloy and not a part of the welded cluster, so its better to stay off it for the sake of longevity anyway).  I thought that 48T/14T on this bike was the perfect sweet spot.  A small front ring is best when its on cargo duty, and a large one is best when its a commuter.  48T, when used in conjunction with upshifts, gave me pretty much everything I needed.

Pretty much but not everything.  First of all, remember the deep offset of the Luna ring?  It moves the chain inboard 24.8mm which *usually* eliminates the damage the BBSHD does to chain alignment.  Not on the Mongoose, whose narrow bottom bracket effectively papers over all of the sins committed by the motor (at this time I had not yet fully figured this out).  So, as I found with the 42T ring, it was inset too far, even when I stayed off the smallest cog.

So Plan B helped, but it didn’t solve the problem.  After only a couple weeks (I am now checking carefully and frequently) I saw the beginnings of the same wear on the inside of the chainring.  Like the 42T, I had to retire this thing fast so I could use it on some future project.

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Not as bad as the 42T, but still bad.  Both this one and the 42T looked perfect on the other side.

Sidebar: A mid drive chain powered by a 1500w motor is a chain saw when it comes to components rubbing against it.  That is just a reality of a mid drive and you have to deal with it as part of your design/build process.  When you get it right, you are golden for thousands of happy miles.  Get it wrong and you are sawing thru chainrings and cogs like nobody’s business.

Plan C: Lekkie Bling Ring (46T)

So now what?  42T was too small.  48T was more or less just right.  And the chainring offset that lets me use the inner cogs at great alignment still needs to be reduced or I can’t use anything but the lower gears.  Lekkie has a Bling Ring available in 46T.  It has the same internal offset their 42T ring has and, since I use them on two other bikes I know they are top quality.  At 18.3 mm its offset is quite a bit less than the Luna.  So I got a 46T.  I also added a 2mm spacer underneath it, further reducing the chainring offset to 16.3mm.  That is a whopping 8.5mm less than before so I hoped I would be good on the smaller outer cogs and still let me use the big inners.

And, pretty much, it was.  Chain alignment didn’t seem to be much of an issue, although it still wore down a bit more on the inside.   I was also able to shift up to the biggest cogs in the rear for very low gearing options.  Those are important on a full cargo load and if I am dealing with hills.

But… I flat out missed that 48T high gear for commuting.  And I was still seeing – very slight but noticeable – wear on  the inside of the chainring teeth from the chain, which was still visibly angling outboard a fair distance.

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This one was on for a few months and had 8.5mm less offset.  But it still shows signs of premature aging.  This was undesirable but livable.

I decided to try an extreme option I had not previously considered.  But on this bike, where all of the normal chainring offset stuff doesn’t seem necessary, it might actually work.

Plan D: Luna 130 BCD Adapter and Wolf Tooth 48T Ring

BBSHD chainrings are generally all proprietary to the platform.  Not so in the cycling world, where chainrings are universal, needing only to match the proper Bolt Circle Diameter for the chainring bolts.  Match the BCD between crankset and chainring and you are good to go.  There are adapters out there in the world that allow a Bafang motor to use standard 104mm and 130mm BCD chainrings.  The problem is they don’t give you anywhere near as much inward offset.  But given my experience so far, maybe I can live with that.  They should fix my alignment on my ‘commuter’ cogs, but will I still be able to use my ‘cargo’ cogs?

In addition to the LunaCycle 130 BCD adapter, I also chose the Wolf Tooth Drop Stop chainring as those rings are best-in-show for this sort of thing on a mid drive.  Attachment to the adapter was a little different than the usual chainring-to-crank operation in that its backwards.  The chainring bolts onto the inside.  I was able to play some games to good effect:  I reversed the chainring so it is logo-side-inward.  Not as pretty, but doing that lets me take advantage of the countersunk bolt holes on what is normally the outboard side.  The countersinking let me mount a bolt so it is almost flush with the ring, which in turn is butted up almost on top of the secondary motor housing.  With the countersinking it now has plenty of clearance.

Plan D Results

FINALLY.  Everything is working right.  The reduced chainring offset means my 14T cog (still not using the 12T for the reliability issues mentioned above) lines up straight back.  This outboard shift did affect my inner cog alignments but I can still get to all of them but the biggest 32T.  I’m comfortable with the angles on all but the second-largest 30T for long term use, and in a pinch, that 30T will work fine.  I just don’t want to stay on it for a week.  So this 9-speed is now a 7-speed and as DIY mid drives go thats still better than a lot of builds can manage.

And worth mentioning, like a lot of what they do, the CNC-machined Luna adapter is freaking gorgeous, and very precisely manufactured.  So much so it really stands head and shoulders above another adapter I got my hands on and was able to compare it directly to.

Honorable Mention: USAMade 130 BCD Adapter

I was surprised at how well this worked and how nicely it was made.  The part only cost me $29.99 on Amazon.  Still, it was Made in USA, well machined and rock solid.  The only things I didn’t like about it was the fact it was machined a bit too heavily, which meant it placed the chainring a millimeter or two further outboard than was necessary, and in this game millimeters count.  Further, as you can see above I was able to reverse the WolfTooth ring and take advantage of the bolt head countersinks.  That didn’t work with this part as USAMade countersunk the outside edge of their part, which made the bolts too long to allow my trying the same trick on the inside, where I needed it.  For a different build it might work fine so I am keeping it for my parts pile.

As for the Stone chainring seen on the USAMade adapter (scroll up to the title image at the top of the page), thats a Chinese Special that ran less than the godawfully expensive Wolf Tooth.  Its noticeably lighter in construction than the WT and I’m not sure I am sold on the tooth profile.  This ring will sit in my parts pile waiting in the wings as an emergency replacement.

Great Big Bags (an important afterword)

Some time ago I made a post about Big And Cheap: DIY Cargo Bike Bags.  On that post I noted on the build sheet this last item:

Therm-a-Rest Classic Foam Pad        Amazon   29.95

And then never mentioned another word about it.  I still ignored it in the Cheap DIY Cargo Bags: Update follow-on post.

Oops

So, that item is actually sort of a big deal for these bags.  Why?  Because the padding lines the inside of the otherwise floppy ol’ canvas parachute bag and gives it a soft but firm structure.  It also of course pads the interior so your carton of eggs stands a better chance of making it home in the same number of pieces it started out in at the grocery store.

Without further ado:  Here’s a look at the end result:

img_20191124_150155

And here’s what it looked like before I took a knife to it:

81+d8WUgWEL._AC_SL1500_[1]

This is a “Therm-a-Rest RidgeRest Classic Foam Camping Sleeping Pad” in its Large size, which is 77″ long by 25″ wide.  The important measurement is the width:  25″.  Thats only 1″ wider than the measured 24″ width of the Rothco Parachute Bag we are using for this project.  In actual practice, stuffing it into the bag, the width is perfectly sized to the bag.

What about length?  Well, I found all you have to do is cut one of these sleeping pads in half, widthwise.  This will give you two 25″ wide by 38.5″ long pieces.  That 38.5″ is pretty much perfect insofar as lining three sides of the bag (rear, bottom and front face).

Having this sturdy but padded liner inside the bag, you can pile stuff on inside and the bag retains its squared off shape.  Further, when using the straps to lift up the bag off the lower rack, the liner allows those straps to carry some of the bag’s weight without flopping down onto the rack in its center.  Without the pad as a liner, none of that good stuff happens.

Here are a couple of shots of the bags, empty, and folded up.  Here again the pad on the inside gives these monstrous panniers shape so they can fold up and stay neat/tidy.

 

You can see from the pics above how useless those big straps would be without some sort of internal structure (also notice these are still the early 2″ straps).  That internal padding is crucial to making these bags work.  Now lets look at the bags loaded:

 

See that grocery cart in the background?  Well, it was mostly full and now its loaded up into the Mongoose.  Filling both the 25L (each) front panniers and these almost 77L bags in the rear.  Those bags are still well-loaded but as you can see by no means full.   They are loaded mostly with 2L juice bottles, a case of 500ml coca cola bottles and a slew of soup cans and such.  With all that weight, the straps can still hold the bags up and partially off the lower rack and retain their shape (although I did add a third 2″ strap in the center to supplement the two outer 3″ straps… this load was *heavy*).

So… thats why you need the pads.

Finally, what do these bags look like when truly, fully filled out?  Recently I took some old XL sleeping bags out of the house.  A city park was midway to the drop off point and I pulled over for a quick set of pics.

 

 

Cheap DIY Cargo Bags: Update

Recently I posted up about how I made some Big And Cheap DIY Cargo Bike Bags.  Since I made that post, I have made a couple of improvements worth mentioning (including learning to lock my front wheel… look closely at that pic above… doh!).

The Straps

While I discussed them in my original post, my use of 3″ wide straps hadn’t actually happened at that time.  The straps were in transit.  They have since arrived and been installed.  I do prefer the wider size, and the shorter length of just under 60″ (I’m using two 30″ straps connected together).  You can see them in use in the picture above.

It is worth noting the clumsiness I experienced with the longer 2″ x 72″ straps went away with a couple of days’ use.  I simply got used to them, so as I mentioned in my original post, there is nothing wrong with 2″ straps.  1-piece, 2″ x 60″ straps should work just fine, will cost a bit less and be a hair less complicated.  Although they will give a little less support.

The Hooks

Discussing the improvement to the hooks is a bit more involved.

Lets backtrack a step: Originally when planning this project I ordered some AN970 Large Area Washers from Pegasus Auto Racing Supplies.  I intended to use them in conjunction with the M5 mid-frame braze-on bosses on the Mongoose Envoy to permanently anchor the bags to the side of the bike.  Later on as the project matured I decided to just use the straps and not bolt the bags to the bike.  So I never utilized these washers.

I bought the 1/4″ size which have an outside diameter of 1.125″ (28.6mm).  Inside diameter is suitable for an M6 bolt, and usable with an M5.  Washer thickness is 1.6mm so these are very beefy.  Additionally they are made with Grade 8 heat treated steel.  These washers are VERY strong.  I have used the 1/2″ size, unsupported except for a nut, to secure end link bushings on a track (race) car and they held firm without bending in that very extreme job.  If you toss your bike out of an airplane, these washers will probably be the only thing not bent on impact.

So… I have a bunch of unused washers.  So what?  Well, as you can see from the original build, the S hooks fit inside of a fairly large 13/16″ hole.  The hook has plenty of lip to hang on thru bumps and bonks while going down the road, but it still moves and there is a little rattling.  I hate rattling.  When I build a bike it doesn’t rattle.  I don’t care how big of a cliff you ride off of.  No rattles.  So… I took steps.  Afterwards, the bags remain easy to remove from the bike.  You just do it differently.

img_20191201_082723
Fig. 1:  Here’s everything we need to get the first part of the job done (stabilize the connection of the hook to the bag)

Step 1: Attach the big washer

These washers are big.  1 1/8″ wide in fact (essentially the same size as a headset stem cap).  They are so wide they cannot fit inside of the narrow end of the ‘S’ hook unless we spread it a bit.  So lets do that.

Take your pliers and spread the small end of the ‘S’ just barely enough so the washer will fit inside of it.  Fit the washer in and then again being very careful not to over-crimp the ‘S’, take it back to being the same shape (parallel) it was originally.

When you are done, you can stop here and fit the resulting product onto your bag grommet to see what you have accomplished.  You will fix the hook by putting the big end thru from the inside of the bag.  It will look like the picture below.  At this point the connection is much more solid and when on the bike very unlikely to come undone unless you want it to.

img_20191201_083417
Fig. 4:  If you over-crimp the hook it will be too tight and will no longer fit.  If you leave it spread out, it will rattle and move around.  Just put it back the way it was before you put the washer in and everything will be fine.

So, we could stop here, but if you recall, I said no rattling.  So lets take this another step to further solidify the hook into the hole and, as a bonus, make it silent.

Step 2: Add mastic tape to washer

Everyone knows duct tape is a gift from the Gods.  A million uses.  For bicycles and particularly ebikes, 3M Moisture Sealing Tape, Type 2228, is even more useful.  This stuff is available at your local hardware store for about $10 a roll for the 1″ wide stuff.  Its magic comes from the fact it is 65 mils thick (five or six times thicker than what you think tape thickness should be) and is a soft, adhesive rubber that can be stretched, bent, squished and molded as you see fit.  And when it sticks to itself it literally welds together.

For this job, for each hook I snipped three snips of tape, each about 5mm in length.  I didn’t actually measure – no need to be so precise.  I just eyeballed it.  Two of the snips went to the inside side of the washer, pushed inward to hold the hook in place and more or less fully face the washer with thick, soft rubber tape (3 guesses on how that affects rattling).

img_20191201_083921
Fig. 5:  Do a better job than I did here and cut yourself a little more tape so it goes edge to edge on the washer.

Step 3: Add tape to hook

With the above complete, plant the hook in the grommet hole – now you have to do it from the inside of the bag – and use the third snip to wrap around the hook, so the tape is between the hook and the grommet face.  Like so, below.  This will be a snug fit, but the tape’s tendency to weld to itself makes this job certain despite the fumblefingering that will ensue during job completion.  When done, you have this:

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Fig. 6: The 3rd strip of tape silences the hook rattling against the grommet.

Repeat the process with all four hooks.  Here’s a peek inside the bag.  Notice the washers completely cover the grommet hole.

img_20191201_090027
Fig. 7:  View from inside.  Pretty sturdy connection compared to poking a hole in fabric with a hook.

The hooks worked fine as conceived in the original build.  But these are now a  more secure, stable mount.  For long term use this is a better way to do the job, and the cost to do it is about 80 cents.

FYI its fine if you don’t use these Grade 8 uber steel washers… look for something similar at your hardware store, probably a 1/4″ zinc fender washer.  Cheaper, too.

Upgrade The Hooks

This is not such a big deal but it works just a little better.  All of the pics above use the black steel hooks that presently retail for $8.99.  These hooks are powder coated so the black is on there pretty good,  But its not going to be perfect, and rubbing paint (bike frame) on powder coat (hook) means you get some rubbing off on both the frame and the hook.  Plus that powder coat isn’t as smooth as polished steel.  These hooks come in a polished steel option for an additional $1 for the 30-hook pack.  I got a pack of these and they seem to fit more smoothly against my frame (where the hook is exactly the size of the frame rails, so fitment is always rubbing-tight).

There is a slight cosmetic difference as they are slightly visible now whereas the black ones were not.  I’ll leave it to you do decide if you care.

These hooks, in the best tradition of Chinese marketing, are described as “premium metal steel” so we’ll have to see whether either behaves differently.  I am using polished on one side and powder coated on the other.  Time will tell if either will rust.

Big And Cheap: DIY Cargo Bike Bags

There is another post that shows later improvements to these bags.  Here is another one that covers a hole I left in this article below.
Great Big Bags 2.0 uses a better attachment method.

I have a Mongoose Envoy that I turned into a project bike.  I essentially took a very inexpensive bike with low end components (but a fantastic frame, with a good fork and wheels) and rebuilt it into a high power, heavy duty cargo bike with better components than I’d get if I paid for one from a major manufacturer.

The Envoy comes with two almost-38L-each panniers (24″ long x 16″ tall x 6″ deep).  Thats one hell of a lot for a bag on a normal bike.  But on a mid tail cargo bike frame, they’re smaller than what they could be.

The stock bags look skinny, and are no thicker than a normal pannier.  But I’ve had them loaded with a complete Costco grocery run where the bike ended up well past its 140-lb rated cargo capacity.  Using an elastic bungee net to make sure everything stayed tight to the bike, all I had to do was lumber home without killing myself.

img_20191111_112329
Figure 1.  A light shopping run – not using front bags.  The bags we’ll make here are about the same size as the ones shown, but more than double the width.  Note the cargo net used here as insurance that those bags stay put.

So… the bags work great and are essentially free.  But I’d like something that better suits the capacity that the mid-tail cargo frame can handle.

I managed to score a brand new set of Surly Dummy bags for a great price.  I found they were great bikepacking bags not suited to bulk grocery hauling.  Whats needed is a giant hole you can dump stuff into and zip closed.

It looked to me like the Yuba Go-Getter bag ($300 plus shipping for the pair) was the closest fit to this idea, and to my frame (It is meant to fit their popular Yuba Mundo cargo mid tail)  I contacted Yuba about the exact size of the bags, and that they would be going on a non-Yuba bike.  They promptly got back to me with this:

  • Length – 29″ / 74 cm
  • Depth – 10″ / 25cm
  • Height – 17″ / 43cm
  • Volume comes to about 84 quarts or 79.5 liters.
  • It is important to note that we designed the Go-Getter to be specifically compatible with our Yuba Mundos and we cannot guarantee its compatibility with non-Yuba bikes.

Go-Getter-Angle_600x600
Figure 2: A single Yuba Go-Getter bag mounted on a Yuba Mundo cargo bike.

Thats pretty awesome in terms of capacity.  However, those dimensions are just enough to worry me on my bike.  The Envoy’s bags are 24″ long.  29″ might end up pushing into my heel clearance.  The height of 17″ is for sure an issue.  Envoy bags are 16″ tall, and its already a problem that those bags essentially sit directly on the lower rack.  While the bike frame is rated for 90 lbs, the lower rack is only rated for 20 per side, or 40 lbs total.  Now, they can handle much more than that in real life, and I have reinforced the lower rack’s attachment to the frame (Supplementing the factory’s four connections with an additional six that are each stronger than the simple factory bolt), but still a bag that basically sits its weight on that lower rack is not ideal.

What would be better would be a bag that is a little shorter, that bows downward under load, putting strain primarily on its hanging hooks, so only partial weight is borne by the lower rack.  Add in a couple straps to help take the load off those 4 hooks and its better still.

I think my solution accomplishes that.  Bear in mind everything I did here was done specific to this bike.  You can take these ideas and make adjustments so this basic concept fits to yours.

The Budget

Lets call the number I am trying to beat the cost of the Yuba Go-Getter bags, which were my benchmark for capacity:  $300.  So I wanted this project to come in as far under this number as possible and still get a quality bag.  As you can see from the build sheet below, I came in well under the commercial product’s price point.

Build Sheet ($111.50, or $55.75 each)

Rothco Parachute Bag (2)             Amazon   45.98
3"x30"velcro cinch straps (8)        Amazon   21.54
C.S. Osborne #6 13/16" grommets (8)  Amazon   11.36
Stainless 0.3"/0.78" S hooks (8)     Amazon    2.67 
Therm-a-Rest Classic Foam Pad        Amazon   29.95

The Bags

I want something more durable than the fabled, dirt cheap Ikea bag.  But really those bags got dropped as candidates because the zippered version is so short at 11″ that it would be putting the load unnecessarily high.  Also its 28″ length is again just enough to worry me.  And how sturdy is it?  The zipper in particular?

I had a candidate already in my hands in the form of a Rothco Parachute Bag.  These are simple, cheap $23 bags made of reasonably thick canvas and strong, smooth zippers with a snapped storm flap.  Dimensions are 24″ long (identical to the Mongoose stock size), 15″ tall (1″ shorter than stock, so addresses my height/weight concerns) and 13″ deep.  Work out those measurements to cubic inches (4680) and convert to liters and you have a 76.7L pannier bag.

Since I already had one of these bags in my closet, I was able to toss in some full size pillows (it ate 3 of them and still wasn’t quite full) and sized it to the bike.  Looked like a perfect fit.  So I bought two more for testing.

Attachment

After a fair bit of fussing around, trying to figure out exactly how I wanted to attach the bags to the bike (it actually took a few weeks), I settled on primary support being grommet holes in the bags, which will connect to simple S hooks mounted to the frame.  These will be further supported by straps.

I used the C.S. Osborne #6 grommet, which has a 13/16″ hole.  Why this brand and size?  Well, there are drapery grommets, shower curtain grommets and outdoor tarp grommets.  The grommets for curtains are nowhere near strong enough to work on a tarp… or a pannier.  I knew from experience the Osborne grommets are solid and will distribute the forces involved as well as possible.

I chose a 13/16″ size because… I had the grommets and the grommet tool already.

20170218_143537Sidebar:  The #6 grommet size is the smallest size commonly available that will let you fit an XT90 connector thru the hole.  Thats why I have the grommets and tools in my garage – from building battery bags for my custom ebikes.  I grommet the pass-thru holes in the bags.  And since I have been using them for years, I know they hold up.  The bag on the right was made in early 2017 and is still in use today.  This $12 Amazon bag with reinforced holes is way cheaper than a custom ebike bag.

  • You can see in the first pic below, three of the four grommets’ upper edges match the seam of the bag, while the forward-most grommet is lower.  Oops.  My second bag had them all even and all in the lower orientation.  Despite the different mounting, you can’t tell the difference in how they sit on the bike.
  • The single brass grommet was deliberate as I wanted a quick visual cue to help me orient the bag.  Brass = rear for both bags.

Straps

Not wanting to rely totally on the hooks, there are two dedicated three-inch velcro cinch straps.  These are actually made up of two 30-inch straps combined to make one longer strap.  I had to do this as there does not appear to be a 3″ wide velcro cinch strap in a 60″+ size on the market.  If you wanted to save some money and use a narrower strap, 2″ cinch straps are widely available.  In fact, the pics below show an early test fitment where I was using 2″ x 72″ straps, which worked OK but were so long they were a bit unwieldy.  Shorter straps were more convenient and the wider 3″ version provided more support.

The right way to use the straps:  Loop over the rack at top, and the very bottom, directly underneath.  But do NOT loop under the lower rack and then go up over the bag.  Instead, from the bottom of the bike frame, loop the strap directly under the bag and then back up to the top.  The top loop over the rack helps support the bag’s weight.  The bottom loop onto the lower portion of the frame (or rack depending on your bike) helps hold the bag close to the frame so it won’t flop around.  And the remainder of the strap, directly up against the bag and not under the lower rack, holds up the bottom of the bag, preventing – along with the padding – the bag from sagging.

Hooks

These are pretty straightforward.  I wanted an S hook with beveled edges that allows quick attach/detach, but at the same time is shaped in such a way that the bag will not easily come undone from it as I bounce from pothole to pothole.  I searched for months for such a hook for a cargo net and fell into the ones I am specifying in the build sheet.  Originally meant for my cargo net, they are also perfect for this project as well.  I have the painted black versions but I am spec’ing the unpainted stainless versions.  For your own personal bike, you may need something different.  Follow the link above and note the seller offers three sizes.

More Options

  • Most of the reason I used pre-made cinch straps rather than buying webbing and fastex-style buckles is that hook/loop strapping is much easier to adjust.  This makes it easy to cinch up the straps when the bags are empty, and fold the bags up quite nicely.  There is even a deep, wide pocket formed by this process that is a decent candidate for stuffing in whatever fits.
  • During testing of the bag when fully loaded, I ran a 15″ x 30″ cargo net from my top rack, over the bag and underneath to the bottom rack.  It provided great support to keep the bag from sagging, and held it firmly, close to the frame.  For really heavy loads this looks like a smart thing to have available; especially since it can lay flat in the bottom of the bag and take up no extra space.
  • I have a 24″ x 36″ cargo net (see it in action in Figure 1 above) that I can use to stretch over my entire cargo area.  Up over a side bag, the loaded upper deck and back down over the other side.  For big, heavy loads, a net like this can put a gentle, compressing and enveloping grip over the entire load in the rear.

Where Do You Go From Here?

Unless you have a Mongoose Envoy then your bags will need to be tailored to whatever your bike fittings are.  Expect to put the grommets in different places.  Maybe use a different size of S hook.  Don’t expect my project to work perfectly for your bike although the parts I am using should be mighty close to universal once you space things out per your bike’s needs.

In the photo above: I had so much room in the new bags after loading up my shopping cart, I never even used the 36″ x 12″ duffel that sits atop my 40″ rear deck.  There is almost 154 liters of pannier space in those bags, and after dumping that whole shopping cart into them (the front bags helped too)… they still aren’t full!